RACHEL MADDOW: Madame Administrator, thank you so much for being here. It's really nice to see you.
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Good to see you, Rachel.
RACHEL MADDOW: So President Biden did use the word genocide when describing the situation in Ukraine he used that word for the first time today. I want to get your perspective on what that means for the US president to use that word, does that change the US posture in this conflict? Does it change our perceived responsibilities?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, let me just say that from the beginning of the war, we've seen two things. Extraordinary brutality, I say that, as somebody, as you said, who has studied mass atrocities and genocide over time, I mean, I didn't think I was capable of being shocked by the actions of violent, brutal leaders, and their coldness to human life. But even though we warned that a lot of this was coming, when you see mothers digging their sons out of wells, or you see bodies being burnt to hide evidence, or just to destroy the will of families who have to watch it happen, I mean, it is searing. What is happening is grotesque and horrific. At the same time, from the very beginning of the war, in part, because Putin projected at least some of his intentions in terms of launching the military invasion and being willing to target civilians and leaders and journalists, and NGO professionals. We've been working with the Ukrainians to help document the atrocities underway, which started on day one, when they began hitting residential areas and, you know, hospitals and the like. So in terms of the formal legal determination, inevitably, that is going to occur in a courtroom, or through an elaborate legal process where we gather testimonies, combine it with intelligence, where we can show intent to destroy a national, ethnic or religious group as such, in this case, a national group, as a president said, that will come but I think what the President's speaking to is to what we all see with our own eyes, which is that's intentionally trying to wipe out Ukrainians because they are Ukrainians. And I think that was why that determination by him was made. But he was the first to say, look, we have a process we're building toward, you know, the UN Commission of Inquiry that's been set up, the International Criminal Court has announced that it's opening an investigation, so there will be plenty of venues, to gather everything in one place and run through this. But the facts of what we see everyday, and above all what the Ukrainians are experiencing every day, are plain as day.
RACHEL MADDOW: Given the overall point of this war for Vladimir Putin, the invasion itself, the shifting justifications he's given and explanations he's given for why he's doing what he's doing and the way that he has carried it out. Do you honestly think that he cares about being accused of war crimes that he sees any realistic threat of being held accountable for some type of warfare that might be described as criminal as opposed to the war itself, which arguably is criminal as a whole. I mean, it just, it feels like almost an academic determination at this point, especially for a dictator who doesn't ever plan on leaving power?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: You know, it's a fair question for sure, because we see the kind of culture of impunity that he's embedded himself in for a very long time and we see the long table and the yes men and the sycophants and anybody who raises the voice of dissent, whether on TV or in his inner circle, you know, we don't see them again. So I hear you, but I just offer a personal reflection on that question, which is, I got my start in Bosnia as a kid reporter, documenting some of these crimes on the ground, not with an eye to legal determinations, but just as a simple freelance work correspondent. And I can say, having interacted with the big guys of that time, the brutal war criminals of that time, the Ratko Mladics, the Slobodan Milosevics, the Radovan Karadzics, you know names that people aren't really talking about anymore. But they carried themselves in the same way. They sat at those long tables, they, you know, cut people off the air who offered dissenting views, you know, they only surrounded themselves with yes men. Oh, you're so smart. President Milosevic, you're so this, you're so that, and I never dreamed that history would turn and that these three individuals would end up you know, in the Hague and nor did the victims of their atrocities. So it isn't to say that inevitably, history will repeat itself. But it is to say that history is long. And sadly, you know, this war every day that this war goes on seven weeks, every day that the circle of economic consequences combined with the prospect of the Sword of Damocles in a legal sense or in a judicial accountability sense everyday that that doesn't impact Putin's calculus in the here and now is one day too many. So we all understand that. But I think to think that just because he's at a long table now and looking like he is standing immune to the consequences of his brutality, I think could prove short sighted.
RACHEL MADDOW: Let me ask you about something that we just heard from the Ukrainian military. I know you just got back from Moldova, on the Ukrainian border there. Ukrainian military this week gave an unusual warning about Moldova, they warned that Russia, they believe Russia may be about to do something in Moldova, that they're then going to blame on Ukraine, to justify Russia expanding the war and invading that country to basically they're warning that Russia is looking for a fake justification to keep moving, to keep expanding the war into neighboring countries that they have had their eye on for a while. What do you make of those claims from Ukraine and from the overall threat that Putin doesn't even plan on containing this just to Ukraine, despite the damage he's already done there?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, again, one would never wish to underestimate either Putin’s brutality or the counterproductive decisions he can make, in order to set back his own war effort, right? I mean, he has not handled this well, and so to create another theater when his troops are not managing in the theater that they are in other than committing atrocities. You can't rule that out. But I will tell you the same thing I told the Moldovan President and President Biden and everyone on the team have conveyed which is at this point, we see no evidence of plans of that nature. And we're watching very carefully. If you're Moldovan and you're in a small country of under 3 million people, already part of your country has been occupied by Russian forces unjustly, your sovereignty has been undermined. You should know you're led by an amazing pair of female president and prime minister two technocrat anti-corruption reformers who very much want to integrate Moldova into Europe. Putin hates that, of course. And they've taken great strides to fight the oligarchs and to fight corruption. Putin hates that too. So there is a jitteriness, understandably, in Moldova. And again, we can't rule anything like that out, given that Putin clearly has ambitions to recreate, you know, some world that no longer exists anymore and to impede progress toward European integration for young people and others who want the democratic freedoms, the rule of law that so many of us cherish and so can't rule it out. Not seeing it at the moment. Certainly, our work with the Moldovan government right now is aimed actually at focusing on their economic security and stability because they have lost export markets, import markets, their fuel prices are up 360%, if you can believe it since the war started. So this is a government that's doing all of the right things. And already the impact of this war well, and apart from any new military dimension to it, is really jeopardizing an incredibly important journey that they are on toward democratic progress.
RACHEL MADDOW: Samantha Power head of the US Agency for International Development former US Ambassador to the United Nations, it's really nice of you to take time to be here, especially with the intensity of your work right now and your travels, thanks for being here.
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Thank you Rachel of course.